Heroes and Alignments

[alexxkay]

A while back on this LJ, while discussing Heroes, rufinia said: "Nathan...well, Nathan isn't quite prepared to be Lawful Good." Actually, I'm not sure he's even particularly trying to be Lawful Good, though he may be trying to fool himself about that. The D&D Alignment system is a fairly blunt instrument at best, but looking through that lens, Nathan seems to me to be Neutral Evil. He doesn't register strongly on the Law/Chaos axis, being willing to work either with or against the system as it suits him. But in D&D terms, Evil equates to selfishness and self-centered-ness, and that's Nathan in spades. While Hiro may *think* Nathan cares about other people, it seems to me that he treats them as either tools or potential liabilities. He works with the FBI against Linderman not out of any moral code, or because it will make the world better -- he does it because Linderman tried to kill *him*, personally, and remains a threat to him. As soon as Linderman said, "You won't make it out of this room alive if you shoot," the conversation was effecively over. Nathan *really* doesn't like having someone in a position of power over him -- but he would hate being dead much, much worse. It was sensible of Linderman to apply some carrot as well as stick, but the stick probably would have been enough.

Alignment is a fun game, let's play some more!

Hiro, of course, is Chaotic Good. He'd probably *like* to be Lawful (and goodness knows his dad would prefer it), but it just isn't in him. He will always be quitting jobs, stealing things when it is "his destiny", and the like.

Mr. Bennett, like most Evil Government Conspiracy members, is a fairly classic Lawful Evil, although that could change with all the plot-stress he's been under.

Claire, on the other hand, is Lawful Good. Much of her stress comes from the fact that she's put in positions where being Lawful is difficult or impossible for her, or where other people (like her father) appear to be "breaking rules".

Peter is Chaotic Good, though he's in serious danger of slipping over to the dark side.

Nikki is Lawful Good, but Jessica is Chaotic Evil.

Anyone else want to play?

Comments

[rufinia.livejournal.com]

I disagree with you about Nathan. In "Six Months Earlier" Nathan was prepared to go after Linderman before the accident- the accident happened because Nathan was about to cross Linderman in the first place. Nathan also cares deeply about his family, he just isn't all that clear on how to show it without being an ass. (I originally wrote "looking like an ass" but "being" is more accurate.)

[alexx-kay.livejournal.com]

In "Six Months Earlier" Nathan was prepared to go after Linderman before the accident

I maintain that that was more about establishing his own autonomy than out of any sense of civic duty. It is an arguable point, I'll admit.

Nathan also cares deeply about his family

Oh, he certainly does. I just think he cares about them in the sense of "valuable property", and is often frustrated at his lack of control over them. Again, reasonable people could interpret his actions differently, but that's how I see it.

[umbran.livejournal.com]

These days, at least, "lawful" isn't necessarily about following the laws of "the system". That's one set of laws, but it isn't the only one you can follow. A lawful character holds to tradition, keeps their word, and otherwise wants things to first and foremost be organized, to follow a plan. For the lawful character, individual choice is unimportant, being a cog in the machine is important.

Nathan registers as lawful to me. He, first and foremost, plays the game, and he knows the game has rules. He constantly has issues with his brother, who keeps bucking against The Plan. I his younger days he may have been Good, but these days he's morally ambiguous.

Mr. Bennet is not Evil. Evil is selfish, self-aggrandizing, profiting from harm done to others. Mr. Bennet is not looking for personal power. He doesn't really like to do harm, but feels it is necessary to keep order in society. He acts to protect others - his family first, society second. That seems pretty LN to me. As compared to his new partner, who gets jollies out of causing distress - she's Evil.

Hiro is Neutral Good. He sometimes follows personal choice (like quitting his job), but he also often sticks to a Code. He follows the way things should be, for a superhero. Chaotics deny the existence of Fate, or Destiny, while Hiro seeks them.

[umbran.livejournal.com]

And I, of course, and NG - Nerdy Good. :)

[alexx-kay.livejournal.com]

:)

[alexx-kay.livejournal.com]

For the lawful character, individual choice is unimportant, being a cog in the machine is important.

I think that Nathan is the same sort of Lawful that Miles Vorkosigan is. He has no problem with chain of command, so long as he gets to be the top of the chain. He likes the fact that the machine works smoothly, but he is profoundly *un*happy to be a cog.

Mr. Bennet is not looking for personal power.

Now, Mr. Bennett is (well, was until recently) happy being a cog. But he still reads as Evil to me. In the flashback episode where he joins the OWI, the way he delivered the line about "I'm okay with 'grey'" sounded to me like the words of a sadist who knows that he will be getting a safe outlet for causing pain. Of course, the words themselves are about Neutrality, so perhaps the writers didn't intend that interpretation.

Also, despite years of loyalty, as soon as his personal interests start to diverge from his employers, he *immediately* begins to disobey their orders. He doesn't even have to think about it, as far as we can tell. His love for his family in general, and Claire in particular, seem to me to be cracks in his previous character, indicating he may be drifting towards Good. The version of Bennett in the flashback seemed to almost enjoy the thought of deceiving his wife, whereas the more recent man seems to be much more deeply in love with her.

[bkdelong.livejournal.com]

I think we're overlooking True Neutral or other Neutral alignments. Neutral isn't about having a say - it's about keeping the balance between Good and Evil, Chaotic and Lawful.

Of course, I'm biased as I created a True Neutral Planetouched race called the Tuladhara (http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0303e&L=planescape-l&D=1&F=&S=&P=1037) for 3e Planescape. I spent a long time contemplating the various neutral alliances and the True Neutral race of Rilmani.

Is Jessica really Chaotic Evil? She's been killing for Linderman but we don't quite know why. She killed the lawyer for stealing, Linderman's goons for going after Nikki, etc. She seems to be doing all this in the name of protecting Nikki. Has she killed anyone truly innocent? Has she attempted to do truly evil things?

I don't have time at the moment to go through the rest. I think Mr. Bennett may be Chaotic Good - he's doing what he's doing because he believes it's for the best and for mankind. Just because he's breaking the law does not mean he's evil. Someone who is Lawful Evil would not give a crap about the greater good....he's be all about personal gain or corrupting innocents or the like......

More after work.

[alexx-kay.livejournal.com]

Has she attempted to do truly evil things?

Beating that psychiatrist into a pulp (possibly even fatally) was certainly uncalled for. She's gleeful about using lethal force, and inflicting fear and/orpain in others.

I think Mr. Bennett may be Chaotic Good

*boggle* I can see the argument for Good (though I don't agree), but how can you possibly say he's Chaotic? He's the most orderly person on the show!

[bkdelong.livejournal.com]

I guess I see Chaotic not necessarily in terms of order and appearance but in how they perceive what is Lawful and what may fudge the lines. My education on D&D alignment draws heavily from the planes that represent said alignments. i.e. the folks from Ysgard aren't necessarily messy and disorderly however if what they think they're doing is good, then I see it as a chaotic interpretation of good rather than one drawn by canonical law e.g. lawful.

I should preface this by saying I tend to have an orthogonal method of thinking...not necessarily linear. One might say....chaotic ;)

[bkdelong.livejournal.com]

Also, I dunno if you're reading the graphic novels but last night's was a perfect example of Chaotic Good vs Lawful Good.